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Why hate what God created? July 15, 2007

Posted by Rasheed Eldin in Concepts, Islam, Queer Muslims.
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This is one of the common refrains and undertones in the not-quite-dialogue between the Queer Muslims and the wider Muslim community to whom they are too terrified to justify their deviant opinions and actions.

Whether it’s the confused individuals trying to find their way through difficult feelings and questions (for whom we have patience and sympathy) — or those few contemptible people who try to mislead others with emotional rhetoric and pseudo-theological sophistry — the claim that “Allah made me this way” is something that needs a bit of analysis.

One commenter put it clearly here: “Allaah (SWT) has created me the way I am.” And I said to him:

So do you have some special knowledge of Allah? Or do you say of Him what you do not know? I think that what you mean to say is: “I find myself the way I am.” But you should be careful how far you project your interpretation of your feelings onto the Creator…

My point being that building your whole case on a statement of something you cannot possibly know for sure is nothing but misguidance. What you know is that you are how you are. A bit like “I think, therefore I am.” But how can you extrapolate to “God created me this way?” I’ll leave my initial reflections here. Have a look at the related links below, then let’s see how our discussion develops in sha’ Allah.

“Inner knowing”, “fullest potential”

If you’re so ‘passionate about Islam’…

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Comments»

1. Qusai - July 16, 2007

Salam, haven’t heard for some time.

It is quite disturbing to start suggesting to people that there may not be a link between fundamental elements that define them as individuals (e.g sexuality) and their creator. As long as there is no deliberate intention in pursuing a homosexual existence you can’t challenge people on their innermost perceptions. These perceptions will forever lay exclusive to them.

If you do, then nothing would stop them from challenging you back on the theology you profess. Is it correct? Is it relevant? Let’s not go down that slippery slope.

The way forward is to discuss the consequences of one’s world view rather than givning yourself the liberty to dissect that what does not belong to you.

2. Rasheed Eldin - July 17, 2007

Salam. I haven’t denied the perception (“I am how I find myself”), I’ve questioned the theology.

Sure, anyone can question mine, but how much time I have for them may depend on how close our beliefs are – i.e. explaining a subtle Islamic point to an ultimately uninterested atheist might not be worth the effort, while clarifying or justifying a claim of mine to a fellow Muslim probably would be, if we shared grounds of discussion.

The problem is that “Allah created me this way” is not presented as a conclusion so much as it is utilised as a premise. But is it really so solid an assumption?

3. Qusai - July 20, 2007

Thanks

I agree that it would be a waste of time to try to argue with anyone who is not in the least interested in what you have to say. However I sincerely think that just because we subscribe (in a very general sense) to the same religious philosophy doesn’t absolve any of us of making the best of effort to always present their thoughts coherently.

In other words, irrespective of what your background is, there will always be things that most people would agree ‘make sense’ and others that simply don’t. Unfortunately this is the only benefit from indulging in discussions with non-believers. It’s a sort of a test: how would your beliefs fare when subjected to unbiased scrutiny. If they fail and you insist on them then you’re not better than any of the competing religions.

You find yourself forced to abandon the comfort of the ideological ‘shortcuts’ that we’re used to (e.g the virtue of having faith without evidence) and instead construct clearer and more useful arguments that would appeal to anyone with a genuine wish to learn the truth.

4. Rasheed Eldin - July 20, 2007

I agree with your points, except that I would question the notion of “unbiased scrutiny” – I get what you mean, but the point here is more whether those beliefs that may be INTERNALLY coherent could be accepted as coherent by someone not looking from within the system (in this case, Islamic theology).

With this post, I am admittedly making an ‘internal’ point, i.e. that our theology should prevent you from “Saying of Allah that which you know not”, as the Qur’an criticises.

It’s a small point but quite an important one, I feel. Not just in refuting those who deceitfully appeal to religious discourse to justify their sinful ways, but more importantly as a step to help genuinely confused people to think about the questions in a more healthy way.

Yet again I recommend Mujahid’s article in making this point:
http://gaymuslims.org/2006/01/22/muslim-before-anything/

All the best, brother. I really do enjoy discussing with you, even when it gets difficult! 🙂

5. sonia - July 22, 2007

no reason why similarly heterosexuality is from our Creator either

6. Rasheed Eldin - July 23, 2007

But that’s a facile argument, Sonia. The phenomenon of opposite-sex attraction (which nowadays people label as “heterosexuality” as though it were just another orientation!) is discussed in very many verses of the Qur’an as well as the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be on him).

Those are the core of our theological discussion.

After that, we could consider the purely biological arguments without looking at scripture. Come on, can anyone claim that heterosexuality is something that humans might have just invented? I mean, how were they born in order to invent it?

I’m not saying that people with SSA choose to feel that way, but rather that there are causes for the SSA which ultimately are in God’s Hands (as are all matters of decree) – but the problem with “God made me this way” is that we’re supposed to follow up with “So celebrate His creation”. There are other negative things in creation we don’t celebrate, but we don’t blame God for them either.

7. Sonia - July 30, 2007

quite amusing how you use the atheist argument [‘ why build such an elaborate edifice from a starting point which something you cannot possibly know for certain]

nice one, i agree completely

8. Sonia - July 30, 2007

well it could be a facile argument rashed, it’s simply the flip side of your own argument – so we would have to agree – if we were being fair of course ( and not imagining we are purveyors of the Truth) that both arguments are rather facile ( which of course they are- all this thinking is ‘facile’ – we none of us have the foggiest idea really what God is thinking, or what his laws are at all, we have only a medieval set of men telling us that what they told us was told to them by Muhammad, and that it was God who spoke to him so on and so forth)

9. Sonia - July 30, 2007

i mean as someone pointed out on Pickled Politics, God could be black and Jamaican and gay, for all we know.

10. Rasheed Eldin - July 31, 2007

Sonia, at least now your ignorance and contempt for religion are clearer, so I know better what kind of person I am talking to. My point in comment #2 is therefore quite relevant.

No, your facile argument is not the flip-side of mine, unless we were to agree that there is no basis for “heterosexuality”, either biologically (it is the basis for human reproduction) or scripturally as I said. I’d rather not repeat myself, as I made this quite clear in #6.

11. Taleb Haqq - July 31, 2007

Well Sonia, WE (as Muslims) have something called the Qur’an, I’m not sure if you’ve heard of it? We also have a set of authenticated sayings of the Prophet peace be upon him. In that order, we hold these sources as “Truth”. This is our truth, I don’t know what yours is?

As for your argument about the nature of God, if I were someone who is rude I would have said the following: “For all that we know, Sonia could be an ass inside a human body”…but I’m not so I won’t.

In our truth, we understand what we need to understand about God in order to get through life. In our truth, we believe that the believers will get to see God on the Day of Judgment (may we be of them).

Praying for guidance for us all…

12. Lee Kennedy - August 2, 2007

Salaam all. I’ve read your discussion with interest, and it’s thought-provoking and quite telling of ‘the human condition’. We are by nature egotistical (ie. this is my belief and if you don’t believe the same you are wrong), but also in need of support and approval (ie. there must be something else there to explain the world).

I’m not very knowledgable of Islam (although moreso than most Christians), but I do have an ever increasing interest. I have many Muslim friends and Islam appeals due to the strong sense of right and wrong, the community and sense of belonging that’s now missing in western society.

I was brought up in an extremely homophobic household – homosexuality is wrong, simple as that. That’s what I grew up believing, it was ridiculed, berated and much of society in those days confirmed my beliefs. But there was one growing problem…..I am gay.

But can I ask you to indulge me just for a minute, while I tell you about myself. For years, most of my life (so far), I hated myself for being gay. I didn’t want to be gay, believed in my heart it was wrong and did everything I could to live a straight life. As a westerner I had girlfriends, even thought about marriage and children, my one regret now is not being a father. I literally thought I didn’t deserve the air I was breathing. At one point I sat with a handful of sleeping pills. I thank God for giving me the strength NOT to take them.

I don’t know why I’m gay but it was certainly not choice – when I first had strange feelings I didn’t even understand what it was, I was too young – all I knew was there was something different. I’ve come to terms with it, although I still have underlying issues about self-worth and sometimes battle with my feelings. All I know is that I’ve never done anything to hurt anyone and spend my life trying to do good (part of wanting to feel better about myself and gain approval apparently). All I ask of people is that they judge me by the person I am and not the one thing in my life that they disagree with.

There are many gay people (especially in the Muslim world) who never come to terms with their sexuality, reject it and live a ‘normal’ and good life. That is a big sacrifice for what may of may not be God’s will, but it doesn’t stop them being gay. They could never be criticised for their true sexuality though. I’m not asking anyone to change their beliefs and I don’t need your approval, but I do ask that you try to understand that gay people are not simply perverts of nature.

I do believe that ours is not to judge, that is reserved for a higher power, and when my judgement day comes, like everyone I will have questions to answer. The one thing I know I will be able to say is that I’ve only ever felt goodness and love in my heart. The rest is in God’s hands.

Thanks for reading this. God be with you all.

13. Taleb Haqq - August 2, 2007

Salam Lee,
Thank you for being civilized 🙂 Your comments are of course welcome.
Nobody here is judging you or anyone else. What we are doing with this website is to expose that say that Islam allows same-sex relationships (even marriages). This is a gross crime against Islam as it serves to play on people’s emotions and misguides them in their times of weakness.

The sacrifice that you talk about, we term as a struggle, a “jihad” if I may (which is Arabic for “struggle”), against a condition that some of us experience we term same-sex attractions. This struggle against these attractions will sure be rewarded by God (and for us, we don’t believe that this may or may not be wrong, we believe it to be wrong).

I too thank God for helping you get out of that hard time. As for your point about being good and doing good, surely this is noble. But, my dear brother, God asks us to good and to believe in him (and his commandments) because this will become the drive that guides our intentions in our actions. Always in the Qur’an we are told about the great reward of those “who BELIEVE and DO GOOD”.

May God be with you and all of us and guide us all, Amen.
Do keep in touch and thank you for being civil 🙂

14. Lee Kennedy - August 4, 2007

Salam Taleb
Thank you for your comments. This is, indeed, a hard and challenging life, I know none of us are perfect or could claim to live fully to the standards as taught by either Jesus (pbuh) or Mohammed (pbuh). All we can do is strive to be the best we can and learn from, gain and give support to others.

Best wishes.

15. Taleb Haqq - August 6, 2007

Salam Lee,
I’m glad we can find some common ground, I pray that this discussion will be fruitful.
All the best 🙂

16. Sam - August 7, 2007

Salaamu Alaikum,

I’ve been reading many of the posts but am a bit confused. So i’ll throw this out and see if it means anything. When i’m driving down the street and I see women all over the place, I get seriously attracted to them and alot of times its vice versa. Of course I do my best not to act upon it and alhamdulilla Allah protects me from that filthiness. So is that sort of the same thing from the general view of this board? Basically i really do feel sometimes that I’m missing out on all these beautiful girls but then i remember the gifts of paradise and sacrifice the way i am for the way i want to be. Is it more complicated because someone is gay? Since after all, I am allowed women in this life through marriage. I’m reminded of a hadith where a man explained to the Prophet (saws) how much he loved zina. really how much he loved it!!! and when the prophet finished talking to him he left hating it. Not so much that he became asexual lol, but rather he saw the beauty in following the rules put forth by Allah. I hope i haven’t been too confusing.i

17. Brravooo! - August 8, 2007

you choose not to do zina because there is a legal alternative. homosexuals don’t have the luxury. to understand the point imagine for a second that you lived in a world where you feel attracted to women but that having intimate relationships with women is illegal under any circumstances. you’re told that the norm is women for wome or men for men. your only hope for any intimate relationship with any creature whatsoever is that you could legally marry a man.

can you imagine that strange situation you’ll find yourself in? that is exactly how I feel when i’m told that that you can only marry a woman. confusing? at least for you imagining such a situation would be like a silly little excercise of imagination. for me it’s the living nightmare i’m in.

it’s not about suppressing a desire for zina, for me it’s a question of suppressing the sexual desire completely or forcing myself to pretend to like women when i don’t have an iota of ability to do so.

get the picture?

18. Lee Kennedy - August 8, 2007

U Alaikum Salaam (hope I’ve got that right?), Sam

Personally I think it’s wrong to think of sexual fulfilment as ‘filthiness’. I do however believe that it should be a matter of love, not just gratuitous urges, and I understand your comments to mean this. Unfortunately, all too often these days it’s seen as acceptable that anyone can be with anyone else, whenever they want. I have to admit that when I was trying to live a ‘normal straight’ life, I was guilty of that too. I’m not proud of my actions and would be mortified if my nieces were to grow up and be like that.

The difficulty with gay people is that we can’t get married (although there are civil partnerships, this is NOT marriage and is not seen as such by straight or gay people, nor should it be). But while I accept that Islam (and Christianity) forbid same sex relationships, if it is to be, then it should be a matter of love. While you are able to resist the temptations around you, could you if you believed it would be for the rest of your life? (This is rhetorical, I don’t expect or want an answer, because not being in that situation you can only speculate).

But Sam, when you marry, and I pray that it is a love match for you, you will get your reward. Between the right people God has given such a precious gift and it should be cherished. I hope my point of view is of help, but it is just my point of view.

19. Sam - August 9, 2007

Thanks Lee,

As far as the filthiness part, you are right and I said it incorrectly but fortunately you understood where I was coming from 🙂 I believe corruption lies at the heart of any illicit sexual conduct, and that is where filthy comes to mind. But I also think you open what can be a very painful point for gays struggling with what they should or shouldn’t do. Is there something to the the idea that homosexual conduct is a crime and living without it is just as important as living without committing other crimes? I understand it all depends on how you look at it but IF for the sake of argument you would agree as I do that ANY sexual conduct not prescribed within the bounds of Islam be a corrupting force of society. Then doesn’t it become just another thing we’d like to do but see the more important picture. You see Lee, many muslims look at prohibitions in Islam as way of keeping us from greater harm, not just a test of “do this to prove your loyalty.”: While Abraham
(as,) who is considered “Khalil Allah” or the “friend of Allah” for his devotion was given a huge test of devotion with the impending sacrifice of his son, he wasn’t even made to carry it out because of Allah’s mercy and love for his good servants. We as muslims today are already blessed by the fact that our tests in life will not be as hard as those who went before us (2:285-6.) so this makes us look at why things are forbidden and find a comfort knowing that to commit these acts lead to terrible consequences. Another way of putting it Lee is that in Islam we are not punished FOR our sins in the Christian sense. Rather we are punished BY our sins. Muslims not only ask forgiveness from Allah but also that he distance us from our sins and even wash them from us that there effect be lost from our lives. So i guess in a roundabout way it comes back to one of the interesting questions these pages bring up… And that is does one indentify themselves as gay because of his or her attractions? I am certainly aware that there must be many many straight men with no inclinations towards becoming “gay” who have found themselves lusting after one thing or another or one person or another or one sex or another. Do they identify themselves as gay? Can you be gay and have children with a women? Is all sexual attraction not conforming to Islamic contexts acceptable ( and no i’m not thinking like rick santorum– lol– at least i dont think i am:) I’m not interested really in going too deep into these things because i feel many gay people know about these ideas and discuss them much more than i do. So is “gayness” one of two natural sexual attractions or one of many? If it is one of many then doesn’t it tend to bring the debate to a different idea than “straight =good, gay=bad” That to me is as important a question as any and i would certainly love to hear your thoughts. especially about any emotional ties to being gay that people might have. I hope you understand what I mean and please write back at your earliest convenience.

And to Bravooooo!! I choose not to do zina because of the grace of Allah. I’d like to be rich but most ways to get rich in today’s economy involve interest, swindling and bad stuff. There is very little chance to get rich by working hard these days. I’ve accepted the fact that I might very well have to work hard and strive the rest of my life because I wont take advantage of the many ways there are to make money off peoples backs. True patience is being patient for the reward of Allah, knowing that what you want of this world might never ever come to fruition, but the reward of Allah is greater and longer lasting. Wa Allahu ZuFadlilAtheem – (and Allah is the Lord of Grace Ever Abounding!!!)

20. Sam - August 9, 2007

Annnnd I almost forgot… the day might very well come – Allah willing it doesn’t— that my situation becomes bad and that I feel i must make money any which way I CAN, I’m certainly not above giving in to greed and power, that is part of Islam, u are not going to be perfect but you must try to do your best and seek not only protection with Allah but also His Reward!! A muslim who doesn’t seek Rewad from Allah might not really be following islam the way it should be followed This is why we have the Du’a that All give us good in this world and good in the hereafter and save us from the torment of the fire. the fire that we bring upon ourselves through our unjustness to ourselves, not Allah’s unjustness towards us,

21. Brravooo! - August 10, 2007

Sam, the comparison you make is incorrect. There is a choice between making money legally and illegally. To a gay person there is only one way of making money and it is illegal.

I know you do righteous things because of the grace of Allah but if that decision was not partly yours then why do you think God rewards you in the first place? Think about it. It is your decision all along. Acknowledging respect for God guiding you to the right decison is all very nice but think really hard about it: what is free will if it wasn’t a personal decision at its core?

I also think you mentioned something which was not entirely correct but I don’t have the evidence on me so I’m counting on your knowledge of religion to recognise what I’m saying is true:

Sins are punishable because they are a transgression against God. It is true that sinful acts are generally bad for society but as far as I understand the ultimate point of referrence is not human society per se but it is the soverignity of God. Agree?

22. Brravooo! - August 10, 2007

to add:

patience in general is an excercise in wisdom and endurance. In this case you would be doing it for your own sake. In Islam it is entirely different. The focus of that virtue becomes God and God alone. so patience is done in anticipation of a reward and a way of showing obedience. the moral highground angle is still there but it is not the ultimate objective. remember you smile at your brother not just to promote peace. you are
1. obeying a command
2. anticipating a reward
in the purest Islamic intention all things are done in the sake of God and nothing else. otherwise it would be a form of shirk. all nice by-products of this action are usefull to society but not entirely relevant.

23. hatim - August 11, 2007

As it was said “know your facts well; then distort them as you wish”

” “Allah made me this way” is not a deviant opinion as you always repeat. in quraan people of sodom were destroyed only because of their intercourse with men, i.e they were the active part, this should leed to the question who was the passive part, the simple answer is unwilling participants through rape implied by the mention of their highway undertakings -which is vague and could imply all sort of things like kidnapping, robbery etc..-
7:80 and 29:28 doesnot imply that they were the first in all creation to commit homosexual acts, for that i would like to refer you to an authority in this subject a sudanese professeur at Sultan Qabos University whose name is Ali Altigani Almahi an anthropologist who discovered during his studies stone wall drawings drawen by cave men found in Algeria depicting homosexual acts between men which historicall y precceds Prophet Lut . so this leed one to another question: what is the thing that they committed befor all other creation and led to their demise. MALE RAPE

24. Taleb Haqq - August 11, 2007

Hatim,
Where do we begin!
They were destroyed for many reasons, ONE OF WHICH was their publicity of male on male sex. (I have no idea where you got this notion of it being because they were “active”).

Besides: how can it be about rape? God tells them “Do you approach males lustily RATHER THAN FEMALES…” Is it your implication that the Qur’an suggests that they rape the females instead?

Another point: Prophet Lut tells them “Here are my daughters if you were to do this act…” Is it your implication that the Prophet was ordering them to rape his daughters???? (I seek refuge in God from these evil thoughts.)

Please THINK!

25. hatim - August 11, 2007

thanks for your prompt reply.
the words ityaan alzekoor implies active participation.
as regarding prophet Lut telling them to have his daughters certainly doesn’t imply rape; it’s just that he wants them to fulfil their urge in a way that will stop them from raping his visitors. also the fact that the only thing needed for them to have their desires fulfiled is sending them outside his house, they did not ask the prophet whether his guests are willing to participate or not, they told him just send them out and we will do the rest.
also God never blamed prophet Lut people as performing women sexual roles just having intercourse as men but with other men
thanks

26. Taleb Haqq - August 11, 2007

Hatim, Ityan means to “approach”. I’m sure you are familiar with notions of intercourse in that the male is the active player. Ityan does NOT mean rape because it is also used to describe intercourse with females elsewhere in the Qur’an.

So according to your distorted view, a rapist’s desire is fulfilled by having sex with women? I’m sure there are a number of doctors out there who would disagree with your claim.

They were not only destroyed because they wanted to have sex with his guests. Remember that the guests were there to inform Prophet Lut Peace be upon him that his people are gong to be destroyed!

Rape is rape, sex is sex, no Prophet of God would EVER tell a rapist to do his daughters instead.

27. Brravooo! - August 12, 2007

Ityan means intercourse. The notion of rape comes from the context of the story. They wanted to rape the prophet’s guests.

Rape is not a disorder. Doctors have little to do with it. Rape is a crime.

The words of the prophet when he offered his daughters “in kuntum fa-ileen” (if you insist) clearly and obviously means he was so desperate as to sarcastically offer his daughters. I know the wording is embarrasing and any good muslim will go to many lengths to make it appear less shocking. The embarrasement is exemplified by Taleb’s defensive positon and his introduction of the matter when the hatim never mentioned it.

28. hatim - August 12, 2007

please don’t distort my words:
First i did not say ityan means rape , i meant ityan means being active which was the characteristic of those people,so please state who was the passive part, if there was willing participants amongst them, why did God never blamed them for acting the woman part- only ityan.
Second, the rape is implied by the request of prophet Lut to send his guests out without asking for their consent which could be concluded as theiir prefered way of intercourse. i never said they have been destroyed because they wanted to have sex with the guests, so please don’t put words in my mouth to win an argument.
as for his daughters what can i say, did the prophet ask them to marry them or just have sex with them. if it is the latter, it is just beyond anyone’s comperhension why did he even offered his daughters to such evil men, another question: was his daughters willing to have sex with anyone just because their father ordered them even a prophet?????? obviously that was another time.
please don’t hammer on the last point about the daughters, just tell me who was passive and why didn’t God mention them if they were willing.
Do you think ityan is more evil than willing passivity??
thanks

29. Taleb Haqq - August 13, 2007

Ityan, the sexual act, involves both parties. Like I said God uses that word elsewhere in the Qur’an to describe sexual intercourse with women! The wording of the verse in question here can be translated as “Do you have sexual intercourse with males in lust rather than with females…” While I don’t deny that rape may have been one of the things they did (they also robbed people amongst other things) it is certainly NOT implied in this verse. What is implied, however, is sexual intercourse (ityan) with men rather than women. If this were to be rape then it would be “Ataghtasiboona?’ meaning “Do you rape…”

The decision to destroy the people was made BEFORE the guests of Prophet Lut peace be upon him came.

“Obviously that was another time…” what time, a time when it was OK to joke or be sarcastic about your daughters being raped… I will hammer this point because you have no argument against it. The Qur’an is clear in this point, it is telling people to satisfy their sexual needs in a halaal way through marriage (this is the ONLY halaal way that Muslims can have sexual intercourse) And this marriage, which is outlined throughout the Qur’an and highlighted by this verse, is between men and women.

By the way… “ityan” during marriage between a man and a woman is NOT evil, all other manifestations of it are. If by “willing passivity” you mean allowing penetration, you are still a participant in the “ityan” in that you are a party to the “intercourse”.

30. Sam - August 14, 2007

braavvvvoooo!!!! 🙂 im not entirely sure you’ve acquainted yourself with Qadr and its aspects but you should remember that our choice comes in wanting to do the right thing more than making the right choices, in islam we make Du’a that Allah (swt) make our steps strong and guide us to the straight way of living. This implies anything good you do is a mercy from Allah in that he allowed your intentions to be good come to fruition, and even better, to have those deeds accepted. Secondly, seeing that you missed the analogy to making money entirely, i’m afraid you’re not much of a proofreader 🙂 I must remind you that there are legal and illegal ways to fulfill sexual desire as well. the point gays never deal with totally to my satisfaction is how to explain other sexual orientations including bisexuality, masturbation, child attraction, and so on without recognizing that sexual desires are in more need of fulfillment than they are of specific constructs. What i mean to say is how can you be exclusively “made” to only find sexual satisfaction in your own sex, when there are perhaps countless combinations of sexual desire that a human can have…. everybody but you people I guess? When u can thouroughly explain to me how a bisexual who is aroused to the point of orgasm by both sexes is some kind of fake phenomenon, then i’d be forced to take your position more seriously. as well as thinking more seriously about you being made in a way where you can only have one outlet for sexual fulfillment. BTW, masturbation counts as another outlet as well. If you have thought of or taken part in any of these or other outlets then how can you prove that you haven’t just chosen which one you like most and identified yourself with it. I personally am a bit uneasy with the “God made you that way so that’s your test in life” position because it gives the homosexual an unreasonable idea of the reasonable religion. I almost think that position enables gays by recognizing something that they really can’t prove.

so in short
1. Can you prove that your ONLY possibility of sexual fulfillment is with another of your own sex?

2. Can you explain why that this is only true for some gays while others can use different outlets?

If you can be aroused at all by any other outlet, then how can you be made exclusively gay? Masturbation included.

31. Sam - August 14, 2007

btw, the wording of Lut (as) is NOT embarrassing when spoken in the Arabic context at all, and can denote sarcasm easily, but more likely denotes women of the town in general and Allahu Alim.

32. Taleb Haqq - August 14, 2007

Quick note: Brraavooo Desperation was never a characteristic of any Prophet…certainly never to the point where they would offer their daughters such.

33. Taleb Haqq - August 14, 2007

Brraavooo as for your point about “Rape being a crime”…yes, it is, of course. However, there are studies that look at the psychology of rapists [google it]…I’m sure there were many doctors involved in that 😉

34. Rasheed Eldin - August 14, 2007

Thanks Hatim for sharing your ideas, which are fairly interesting. My initial notes:

1. The topic of this thread is the idea of “homosexuality” being a matter of “Allah’s creation”. Whether what the Sodomites did was consensual or rape doesn’t have an automatic bearing on that claim. The crimes of the Sodomites were discussed in the following article, which will be followed up by more, in sha’ Allah:
http://gaymuslims.org/2007/02/23/why-were-the-sodomites-destroyed/

2. There is no hint of “sarcasm” in the following verse, also indicating what Lut (as) said to the men of Sodom:
{From all the worlds, do you make intercourse with males– and leave aside what Allah created for you of spouses?…} [26:165-6]

Note there is also nothing there or elsewhere about rape. Lut (as) is condemning them for choosing males over their rightful partners, i.e. females. Why this wording if they should condemned for another crime altogether, i.e. forcing people to sex?

3. As for your claims that (a) “ityan” indicates only the active role; (b) the Qur’an is silent on the passive partners (and therefore leaves it to your imagination to say it was only unwilling passers by), I’m doing some research into these matters and will get back to you as soon as I can, by Allah’s permission.

35. Sam - August 14, 2007

ty 4 clearing that up for me 2 rasheed, JAKS. i’ll look forward to further comments InshaAllah.

36. Michael J. Dennis - August 18, 2007

Salaam, Dear Brothers & Sisters, Love & Peace of Allah Be with you all – Although I am a Lapsed Irish Catholic, originally from County Meath in Rural Ireland (I am considering converting to Islam) I have many dear sweet and lovely Pakistani Muslim friends from when I lived in Manchester in the UK & I am also gay, which I do realise is Har’am within Islam but what is common to us both as Catholics and Muslims is that we are human beings with feelings and a need for love who deserve to exist from a standpoint of mutual respect and love for one another – it was hard enough for me growing up gay in a very strict Catholic home so I can only imagine how difficult it must be being gay and Muslim, faced with the choice of having to renounce your faith or choose the gay path – my parents disowned me when I came out as gay and over the years I have tried to reconcile with my family but they will only do so if I go back in the closet and marry a nice woman and forget about being gay – people can be so narrow minded and there is no excuse for it – a growing number of young Irish Muslims are facing this choice in Modern Ireland and it is not easy

37. brravooo! - August 18, 2007

sam, sorry bro but you are talking about straight people who end up having homosexual acts because they want to experiment or as an adventure. that is not homosexuality. Homosexuality is when you feel naturally inclined towards the same sex. How can I prove it? I give you the privilege of suggesting a method that is acceptable to you.

you seem to suggest homosexuality is an option or is controllable in some way. take my word for it: it aint’. I don’t know how I can prove it to you and I probably need not to but if the topic of homosexuality really does interest you then start by reading the entry on wikipedia.

38. brravooo! - August 18, 2007

by the way sam, if you ever (god forbid) get a splitting headache and ask the pharmacist for a pain killer, don’t be offended if they ask you to ‘prove it’!

39. brravooo! - August 18, 2007

sam I need to point out a few ambiguious statements you made:

—-you should remember that our choice comes in wanting to do the right thing more than making the right choices—

I think you are referring to ‘niyyah’ (intention) not Qadr as you claim.

—the point gays never deal with totally to my satisfaction—

There are 6 billion people alive in the world today. Why would I want to seek approval froma any particular one person? Especially one who has made up their mind that I was wrong already?

—When u can thouroughly explain to me how a bisexual who is aroused to the point of orgasm—

I’m not bisexual and I don’t have any friends who are bisexual. I can’t help you with that.

—What i mean to say is how can you be exclusively “made” to only find sexual satisfaction in your own sex, when there are perhaps countless combinations of sexual desire that a human can have…. —-

I don’t quite understand the point here. Why can’t I be honest and say what I feel? Where is the problem? If you don’t understand my position I can help you understand it to some extent. But why can’t I declare all the countless and countable combinations of sexual desires that I have?

—I personally am a bit uneasy with the “God made you that way so that’s your test in life”—

Exactly: it doesn’t really matter what homosexuality is and whether it’s genuine or not. It doesn’t fit your personal convictions and you live in denial of it. You can’t persuade me to change my inner feelings just because it doesn’t suit your mistaken view of the world.

—the wording of Lut (as) is NOT embarrassing when spoken in the Arabic context at all—

say this to a non-muslim Arab and see what they think. The point is that because we are conditioned to accept every word of the book on blind faith we will never accept any criticism of it. Unfortunately religion requires hypocrisy of people to some extent. I can’t do that.

40. brravooo! - August 18, 2007

Taleb Haqq

What about prophet Yunus? He got fed up with the resistance of his people. It is becaue the prophets are humans like us that we find their stories relevant to everyday life. My favourite one was when Prophet Ibrahim asked God to show him how he can resurrect the dead (hatta yatma-inna qalbi). Not just to show him the mechansims of it but to actually settle any doubt in his mind. The story confirms that requiring proof is a human instinct. Sorry but that is off-topic.

41. Taleb Haqq - August 21, 2007

Brravoo: Prophet Yunus was then ordered to make istighfar (repentance) for his actions…and his story existed to be an example for us. Are we told the same about Prophet Lut? No, which means that his suggestion is a valid one (and not one that he was asked to make repentance for).
Prophet Ibrahim’s story is another topic altogether and has nothing to do with frustration.

42. sukran - August 21, 2007

congratulations on your blog. these kind of efforts which were supposed to be done long time ago, i dont if they ever did- are precious chances to accommodate -nothing is impossible- our belief with our nature to consolidate our belief while learning more and reconcoling with our nature. may Allah bless you.

43. Kareem - August 22, 2007

I believe that Allah creates everyone with the potential to be anything in the world. Whether it is to be gay, or to be a doctor, or to win the Olympics, is based on the person’s experiences. One’s feelings, characteristics, and life are molded by their experiences. I don’t believe that Allah creates you a certain way as soon as you are born. With that in mind, doesn’t Allah control everything that is going to happen to us, thus controlling our experiences? That being said, these are only my BELIEFS, which means I have no proof for them, other than my own experiences, which are an everlasting struggle between mainstream society and my hidden feelings. Yet again, who is to say that there is proof for EVERYTHING in existence? Allah himself has no physical proof of his existence. Atheists work hard to try to disprove Allah’s existence, and look how far they have gotten… Over 1/5 of the world is agnostic/atheist. You see, Allah made it that way so that it would be a test of faith. Only those who believe that He exists, even though He left no Physical/ cold hard proof, will receive His rewards after death.

44. Taleb Haqq - August 22, 2007

Kareem: There are things that are pre-ordained to happen but there are things that we have a choice over. Allah does not force anyone to not believe in him, people themselves make that choice. This is a very well covered topic as of late, it’s called Qadaa and Qadar.
As for Allah having to “physical proof of his existence”…well “Fa bi ayyi Alaai rabbikuma tokathiban”..And by which of the signs of your lord do lie (not tell the truth).

45. Joe - December 11, 2007

This is the first time I have been to a forum where muslims debate homosexuality. It’s nice that this is possible. The world is so terrifying and genuine sympathy and support for such a torment as homosexuality is very sparse. Even in some Western societies which ‘normalise’ homosexuality I feel people ‘accept’ gayness just for sociopolitical reasons (I could expand on that but will save it).
Anyway its good to discuss this as I am similarly ‘cursed’ with this suffering.
I always view Qur’an as a mixture of (true) stories from the past often aimed at society AT THAT TIME, and other more GENERAL teachings appropriate for all times e.g. tho shalt not kill, bear false witness, etc.

My questions are as follows:
1. If homosexuality is such a horrific thing then why is it relegated to a mere footnote in the Qur’an? Qur’an constantly and repetitively talks about other sins such as stealing, adultery, lying, false witness, murder, etc. Yet a trifling mention of homosexuality in a very specific story from the past involving a group of men who went around capturing and effectively raping young men as well as threatening to expel Prophet Lut. Surely if homosexuality is so terrible it would be much more prevalent as a warning in Qur’an?
2. Homosexual ‘love’ is never mentioned. Surely we shouldn’t equate ‘love’ with ‘lust’. Perhaps promiscuity is the bad thing as it is about lust?
3. Stoning adulterers to death is inhuman, as is cutting off someones hands. Therefore we do not take all ‘islamic’ poetry so literally do we? Again this is the difference between tales from the past and general rules and commandments.

I’d like your responses to these please.

I am keeping an open mind about all of this and I tend to believe that homosexuality is generally not good. But its such a terrible thing to ask of a person…to cope in this terrible world without love? Surely heterosexual people have nothing to complain about ever. Gays are not only expected to do without love, but also live in a world where they cannot even talk about their feelings with people at all. Surely this can only result in mental illness. I feel I do so much good in the world and I work hard and look after my family. Would God really send me to hell for wanting to have love to get me through this lonely life?

46. Taleb Haqq - December 22, 2007

Salam Joe,

Sorry it took so long to post / respond to your comments. Everyone on this blog is in a very busy point in their lives [and we DO other things in life other than this blog hehe]

Your questions require a more in depth look at the verses as they (your questions) contain alot of assumptions. To be clear first, I am not a scholar and I never claim to be one. My answers that I have below are based on my understanding of what I have read and what the scholars have written.

As a preamble to the discussion, we must distinguish between what is allowed “halal” in Islam and what is “haram” not allowed in Islam…we must distinguish between this and what the punishment for these haram acts are. After this, we must distinguish between worldly punishments and punishments of the afterlife. THAT is where our concern is first and foremost (with respect to this blog). I believe that should be the main concern when talking about such a topic because at the end of the day [day of judgment] that is what will really matter. Haram wil be punished by hellfire and we ask God for refuge from that.

Now with regards to your question:
The people of Lut are mentioned many times in the Qur’an…hardly a “footnote” as you put it. They committed many crimes, one of which is the act of sexual intercourse between men. It is not true that this was ONLY rape of men, in some of these verses the Arabic word used to describe these acts that they committed is “ityan” of men … rather than women…suggesting that the acts they were committing would have been OK had they been with women…surely we cannot expect the Qur’an to be condoning rape of women!
We also have the fact that the Prophet Lut himself told them “these are my daughters if you were to do these acts” [most scholars here agree that by daughters he didn’t just mean his own daughters but rather the women of the place where they were at].

As for homosexual “love” vs. “lust”. Brotherly and sisterly love is probably most encourage in Islam than in most other religions. On one level Muslims believe that humanity is all of the same progeny and that they are all from the same family in that manner, on another level, the Qur’an states outright that the believing men and women are brothers and sisters to each other…the Prophet’s (peace be upon him) love for his companions and for humanity as a whole in his lifetime is a clear description of this. When it comes to sexual relations, however, the Qur’an is very clear, the only sexual relationship that is allowed is that between a husband and wife.

The answer to your third question is, again, we are not dealing with the worldly punishments, we are more concerned with whether or not the act is haram or not.

Salam and do keep in touch.

47. Usmann - December 10, 2008

Dear brother,
I appreciate Your efforts to clear up what you consider misunderstanding about homosexuality,but you cant justify yourself without the aid of scientific data in your court,which unfortunately recognizes homosexuality as ‘natural#.This is how you can determine if God hates you or not.Why did he create a gay gene in a person and then send him to hell for the same reason.You people make God look like sadist.,
I would love to hear from you and probabaly even debate.
My email id is dragon_heart_70@hotmail.com.
Do contact me.And if you send me email,then do tell me through this thread.
Thanks

48. Rasheed Eldin - December 15, 2008

Usmann,

There are many filthy and repugnant things that could be described as “natural” in some sense, so this is not enough to justify an action or overturn clear textual evidence.

You cite a “gay gene” yet this is not something established by science. If it were, they wouldn’t have to keep writing sensationalist stories about how it’s about to be discovered!

In any case, even if such a gene were created in a person, nobody here is claiming that he would be sent to Hell “for that reason” as you claim. Rather, judgement is based only on actions. You can have any number of innate flaws but strive to live in opposition to them, and in accordance with the laws of God.

49. The caller to Allah is not an oppressor « Eye on ‘Gay Muslims’ - December 19, 2009

[…] I tell someone to abstain from a sin he is attracted to (and claims to be created desiring it!) I am not his oppressor, because: (1) I did not create him; (2) I did not legislate the […]

50. gohar - January 22, 2010

salaam

is there any article on this website relating to the claims of genetic associations for homosexuality?

Rasheed Eldin - January 24, 2010

Salam Gohar,

I don’t think we’ve posted anything detailed on the claims regarding genetics, although there are some discussions in the comments. There are others more specialised in that kind of research, particularly NARTH.

Our main concern is to show that none of that can be used to justify sinful behaviour or re-write Islam to suit pseudo-science or even real science, which should be understood according to fixed moral principles.

Here’s one relevant article:
http://gaymuslims.org/2006/05/29/genetics-and-morality/

51. A - May 1, 2010

Salam brothers,

I actually don’t know what to say regarding this. I know that I was born straight but abused as a kid. I couldn’t also bond with my father and was too close to my mother. Probably those are the reasons that I am attracted to men now. Whatever it is, as the quran says that homosexual actions are sins, I don’t really desire to do that. All I want to say that if there is really a way out of this desire then I would apply it and get rid of this desire. But, everywhere I go, people say that you were born this way and accept it. But, I know in my guts that I wasn’t born this way. Is there any solution?

Rasheed Eldin - May 1, 2010

Wa ‘alaikum as-salam A,

Welcome and thanks for your comment. We do believe that SSA need to be explained in a way that attraction to the opposite sex does not, in that the latter is the usual order of Creation.
http://gaymuslims.org/2006/02/18/l-g-b-and-t/

When we liberate ourselves from the false doctrine of being “created gay” and realise that Allah has created us to worship Him, the path is clear: it is to live in obedience to His revelation and avoid all that displeases Him.

We are also certain that Allah will never punish His servant for something he had no control over. While feelings generally fall into that category, actions generally do not, and those who claim that they “have to sleep with men” are manifest liars.

You are the best person to know the roots of your own SSA as it developed, and knowing that (perhaps with the help of psychology professionals) could be crucial to addressing those issues in the most lasting way.

These matters and more are addressed in the support group run by the StraightWay Foundation: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/straightstruggle – you may wish to join in order to benefit from more perspectives.

52. anon - May 1, 2010

slms A

I saw an interesting show once on dr.phil…where these doctors were treating the ‘gay’ out of their patients…sounded really interesting and informative. nonmuslim organisation, based more on psychology than religion- the founders steadfastly affirm that being gay is a choice, not a genetic mutation:)
im sure if you go on his website, you’ll find the contact details of the doctors..
*good luck*


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