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Yasir Qadhi lecture February 24, 2007

Posted by Rasheed Eldin in Proggies.
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Progress with the Progressives – notes/transcript @ Lota Enterprises

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1. Tantris - March 12, 2007

Homosexuality is a phenomenon that many men and women have manifested (celebrated, accomodated or supressed). Many Gay men and women seek to live out their lives quietly and discreetly whilst seeking the love,emotionally and physically, that comes naturally to them.

Sodom was a city that was debauched and orgyistic in nature. In no way is it comparable to godly homosexuals who seek a monogomous relationship.

Many people judge Muhammad because he married a child. However, I feel sure he would justify his actions, and say it arose from love. To the outsider Gay relationships can seem just about lust. However, they are about love. Sometimes a life long love is possible in a way it could never be if such people were forced into a heterosexual mold alien to them.

Suzainur K A Rahman - March 28, 2012

Sorry for the really late reply.

Just to let you know that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) DID NOT marry a child. Saidatina Aishah was a child when her father suggested to the Prophet to marry her, yes. Her mother consulted her about it, she refused and went back to play.

It was later when has reached puberty when the question was posed to her again and this time, she agreed to it. So, she was not a child when they got married.

This was all according to her narratives; you can look it up.

If you say that just because she has already reached puberty, she was still a child, please bear in mind that for many cultures, marrying off a girl by 13 – 14 years old is not remarkable. It was still practiced in the US right up to early 20th century. And nowadays it is not unusual for young adults of 13 to start engaging in sexual acts.

Just my two cents.

2. Rasheed Eldin - March 14, 2007

God and His Messenger (peace be on him) did not forbid homosexual relations due to any lack of understanding. It is irrelevant to the juristic question whether we call things lust or love. I don’t deny that people can feel love towards members of the same sex just as others do towards the opposite sex. However, I think this is a sign of something going wrong internally, and its manifestations externally would generally (depending on what they are) be sinful.

We would not say that anyone who considers himself homosexual is just like a person from Sodom. Yes, Sodom is different from anywhere today, even though manifestations of its Qur’anic description do exist around us. Among the lessons derived from the Qur’anic narrative on the matter is the legal ruling that all homosexual behaviour (i.e. actions based upon homosexual desire) are forbidden.

As for the matter of the Prophet’s marriage to Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), it is not so simple as to say it arose from love, and I disagree that there is anything that had to be “justified”. The debate from a modern. Western standpoint is an interesting one but not relevant to our discussion here.

3. CB - March 18, 2007

The distinction between lust and love is relevant to those who care to understand homosexual relations. Gay intimacy is probably forbidden just like pork is forbidden i.e. to show obedience in worship of God. Otherwise I can’t think of a single reason why Gay love is immoral or harmful.

4. Qusai - March 18, 2007

Salam,

I have a criticism of the lecture by Sheikh Qhadi. The parable was nice but a good drift from reality and a somewhat simplistic take on the complex issues raised by so called progressive muslims.

It sure is easy to invent a story about vegeterianism and to expose the weak logic of anyone who would seriously consider forsaking their religion because of their gustatory preferrence. However is this scenario taken out of real life? Is it representative in any remote way to what people go through during these difficult times?

In the real world (as I see it) people go into a faith crisis when they are confronted by the ‘philosophical demons’ :

The problem of Divine hiddeness, predistination versus free will, the many forms of the agrument from evil, the purpose of life, slavery in Islam, scriptural cosmology versus modern astronomy…etc.

A further example is the notion of the incompatibility of homosexuality with Islamic principles. This is truly an existential chasm that is a ticking time bomb to any faithful muslim believer who happens to experience such tendencies.

No one who takes religion seriously would not stumble across these difficult faith dilemmas in one way or another at some point in their life. In fact we are taught in In Islam to pray that God gives us stabiltiy in our hearts.

Ali in the story sobers everyone up by reminding us that we should follow and not question our beliefs. If Khalid or Salman simply repied by asking Ali if he can make sense of what use is human intelect and free will if we were created to follow without question then we would have heard a much more interesting and relevant discussion.

Salams.

5. Qusai - March 18, 2007

CB

Forgot to say: in no way you can equate eating pork to homosexual behaviour. Prohibition was straightforward prescriptive in the former while the Quranic treatment of the latter was through reasoning and refutation. In other words refraining from pork is a matter of obedience and not necessarily inherently immoral but God appeals to our own reasoning to see that homosexuality is immoral.

Salam

6. sonia - March 23, 2007

Oh the other thing that someone very intelligent pointed out on a discussion on homosexuality somewhere else..

Now that we know SSA takes place – what does that say about wearing of hijab? That means that we know that it is not only the case that man is attracted to woman – but so are other women – women should wear the hijab in front of women who experience SSA. and since we don’t know who that is – well then women will have to wear hijab infront of everyone.

And also… men should have some method of ensuring they don’t encourage attraction on the part of other men – after all – we know men are attracted to men..

so..this kind of throws the whole traditional hijab debate – do you lot not think?

7. Taleb Haqq - March 24, 2007

Sonia:
“Oh the other thing…”
What was your “first thing?”

Regarding hijab: It is clearly stated in the Qur’an what the purpose of hijab is. And if you think it is simply because of attraction then you are mistaken. You are also mistaken about “Now that we know SSA takes place…” SSA has been taking place for quite some time…have you read the story of Prophet Lut’s people?

Our discourse doesn’t rely on “tradition” it relies on the Qur’an, the Sunnah and on thinking.
As for all your other points about attraction they are covered well with this post on Islamonline.net .

Of note: the lowering of the gaze on the part of both men and women. The modesty of the hijab. And its distinguishing qualities.

8. Rasheed Eldin - March 24, 2007

Sonia, Sonia. Will you ever get it? The points you made only tend to support my resistance to attributing SSA the “essential” quality that comes with the “orientations” theory.

Islamic law deals with the generalities, and allows flexibility for exceptions. If there were a real “orientation” called “homosexuality”, then I am inclined to believe that it would be legislated for particularly, such as in ways of dress. However, the fact is that the Qur’an and Sunnah do give advice that has relevance to SSA matters. For example, the lowering of the gaze (i.e. individual responsibility for one’s own “desire stimuli”) and the prohibition on seeing the most private parts of even the same sex.

By the way, what is this “traditional hijab debate” – you mean the one that sprung up not so long ago?

9. sonia - March 27, 2007

thanks for your response Taleb. however that link you provided made continuous references to ‘men like to look at women’s bodies’ – but what about women liking to look at men’s bodies is usually brushed under the carpet. yes both sexes are required to lower their gaze but the response does not indicate why one sex is still then required to cover the hair. in any case, there’s no point going over that ground – i am perfectly aware of the differences in opinion and I do respect that.

The point about women carrying on wearing the hijab in the presence of other women – who may be gay or not – is not really addressed.

10. Taleb Haqq - March 28, 2007

Sonia:
Please quote those “continuous references”…though it should be noted:
How much do women spend on make-up and getting their hair done every year when compared to men? (And no, I’m not talking about drag queens…)
How’s your backbiting research going?

11. sonia - March 29, 2007

heh its going fine thanks: we’ve all got to do “our bit” in this “community policing” eye on other muslims thing, isn’t it.

pretty funny – what you said. i’ll leave the floor open to all the gay men out there as to their opinion on whether lack of spending money or time on ‘grooming’ affects ‘attractiveness”. oops – wait now -they are supposed to be like us women – right – silly me – I forgot.

12. Taleb Haqq - March 30, 2007

Sonia: you don’t understand the difference between “grooming” and make-up/styling? One is for being proper and clean and the other is for creating an illusion of beauty.

13. Abdullah - June 4, 2007

Sonia,

Your point is covered, and is inclusively avoided with Islam’s injunctions as Rasheed mentioned.

1) Same sex are not supposed to see between navel and knee. Men shouldn’t wear tight, revealing clothes either. Muslim don’t wear tight clothes in front of each other generally. It is not the aim of a Muslim to show off their bodies to everyone.
2) Women cover for Allah’s sake, they can’t say that all men are attracted to them.
3) Men are more able capable of raping women than a woman is. One of the reasons for covering, is so that “you might be known, and not troubled.” (Al Qur’an 33:59).
4) Some scholars have ruled that covering should be with non-Muslim women as well.

The other issue that cropped up,
5) About pork. Has anyone heard possible explanations that its because Pig’s eat anything, even their own mess. They are actually bad for you to eat. We also don’t eat giraffe’s but no one questions that! Its just because its become a social norm to eat pork. There are other animals we wouldn’t eat like they do some places in China etc.
6) Homosexual behaviour IS harmful; its actually physically harmful and has been a major cause for the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.

Often the stories seem simplistic, but there is more to them for the one who contemplates. Also, do not extrapolate so much as is not necessary…

14. Qusai - June 6, 2007

Salam Abdullah,

All points are valid and agreed to but allow me to play devil’s advocate for a minute:

Pigs do infact tend to display incredibly filthy behaviour under captivity. They not just eat their excrement but they eat their young sometimes. However without the stress of captivity they have been observed to raise their ‘families’ and behave in a mild manner.

I feel that prohibition of pork is more to do with showing a willingness to abide by the rules of God than anything else.

STDs are transmitted by heterosexuals as well. The problem is promiscuity and not homosexual behaviour per se. Others would point out that anal penetration is a cause of incontinence. This is true but
1. By and large the commonest cause of this dysfunction is childbirth. A perfectly natural process.
2. Sodomy in not exclusively performed by homosexuals and not all homosexual activity necessarily incorporates this act.

15. midnight stroller - July 1, 2007

Qusai … a Muslim playing a devil’s advocate speaks for itself. What could be expected of such a Muslim other than sheer folly and defiance to Allah and all that He has revealed. SubhanAllah.
The reason why I message is not dumpt my anger. First, I am baffled that the two Muslim grassroot organizations I have searched thus far, seem to be only focusing on gay issues. Is there nothing else in the world that matters? I am sorry, but isnt the entire Midde East and the Muslim World in state of war? Hanging between life and death and all the Canadian Muslims grassroot organizations can do is quarrel over homosexuality. SubhanAllah. Second, your assertion of pigs raising familing and behaving milding. No. in case of captivity or starvation, pigs eat their own young. Moreover, pigs are the only animals that allow their women to mate with multiple male partners at the same time. Considering its living, eating and sexual habits, any greedy, nasty and, or disgusting person is called a pig.
Nutritionists werent kidding when they said, “You are what you eat” so choose your diet wisely. Rasool Allah sallahu alyihi wa sallam said, “You are on the Deen to your friend, so be mindful of whom you befriend”.
And third, homosexuals are at a elevated risk of all sexually transmitted diseases. Hodgkin’s Disease, Anal Cancer, Impairment of Immune Response, Kaposi Sarcoma and so on. Moreover, The CDC reports in its June 2000 HIV/AIDS Surveillance Report that men who have sex with men (MSM) account for the majority of AIDS cases in the United States.
Wallahu 3alam.

16. midnight stroller - July 1, 2007

Assalam alikum warahmatullah brother Abdullah. SubhanAllah I cannot believe that people here use verses of Quran to claim homosexuality is normal and forgiven by Allah. Allah describes homosexuality as ignorance: “Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant!” (27: 55).Yet elsewhere we read, “For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.” (7:81). “And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!” (7: 84). “He said: “O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!”” (29: 30). The West, however, wishes to turn homosexuality into something acceptable by society. Not only that, but laws and regulations are being construed to legalize this sin and many of the issues surrounding it. SubhanAllah Allah says in Surah 61 that He does not guide the Dhalimoon, the tyrants, the wrongdoers and the Faisq, the wicked, repeated sinners. O Allah I seek refuge in Your from dhulum and fisq aameen.

17. midnight stroller - July 1, 2007

Islam is a way of life. It is a system of beliefs based on divine revelation. As other systems rely for their laws and regulations on the human element, Muslims refer to Allah, the Creator, for their laws and regulations. Our very understanding of our existence, life, and the after-life is dependent on this One source.

As Muslims, we also believe that one must search for the truth, the ultimate truth that is the basis of one’s basic beliefs. The search must be thorough and uncompromising. If one comes to the conclusion after that search that the truth lies in Islam, the system MUST be accepted as a whole. As a Muslim, one cannot choose to follow parts of Islam and disregard others. The whole-hearted acceptance of Islam as a religion entails a similar whole-hearted acceptance of its ideology and doctrine, which are thus practiced to the extent of one’s power. “Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? And on the day of judgement they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.” (2:85). This does not imply that sin becomes obsolete. But it does mean that if one sins, one realizes it and acknowledges his actions as such. Homosexuality is a sin. In the light of Sheikh Yasir’s lecture, accept Islam as it was revealed and taught and practised by Rasool Allah sallahu aliyihi wa sallam. Do not distort its teachings to justify your sinful acts and evil thoughts.

18. midnight stroller - July 1, 2007

Back to more important issues: Liberation of PALESTINE and Release of all innocent Muslims detainees from all prisons.
Ya Allahu Akbar! Ya Allah Madad!

19. Qusai - July 2, 2007

Salam

I would like to write a decent response but I would be gratefull if you could keep it short next time, please.

I feel jealous that you are still in a healthy state of faith that has abandoned me years ago. I appreciate your advice and you sound sincere but let me make some comments:

1. There are several sites and forums dedicated to the issue you like to see discussed and I myself participate in other fora where the issues of Israel/Palestine arise.

2. I am not defying God. That would be ridiculous. I happen to be the type who can not be sudued by intimidation. I NEED to reason things to myself. Reason is the most precious faculty man has. It is that what keeps the distinction between us and animals.

If you can’t handle me please ignore what I write. I’ve noticed that there are many out there who are happy to tackle people like myself to the intellectual and religious satisfaction to both sides. No harm done, no condescension needed.

3. You wrote:
…No. in case of captivity or starvation, pigs eat their own young…

Please scroll back up to my entry. This is exactly what I wrote.

4. You mentioned homosexuals are at risk of many diseases. By the way most are linked to HIV and none of that would happen unless the homosexual male was promiscuous. I reiterate it is promiscuity and not homosexuality per se that is the problem here.

Salam for now.

20. Habiba Khan - July 15, 2007

To give my two cents on what Tantris said,

The Prophet of Allah did NOT marry a child, rather he married a young woman who reached puberty and was mature.

Totally not a child…

21. Inkomi - September 20, 2007

Salam alaykum

It might not be very important, but I’ve read this misconception many times so I’d like to say that pigs are not the only species where females mate with multiple partners. Dogs do that a lot, as I can see on a daily basis (some of my non-Muslim relatives have up to 7 dogs)
So that argument really cannot be used to support a rational explanation for pork ban, which wouldn’t be much use anyway.

22. Inkomi - September 20, 2007

Midnight Stroller, I think you misunderstood the previous comments because you don’t distinguish between homosexuality ie homosexual temptations and homosexuality ie homosexual ACTS. Unfortunately English seems to have only one word for both cases, because in the West there’s usually no distinction made between the two. From what I’ve read, no one has denied that homosexual acts were haram, they just said that homosexual feelings, as long as they were not acted upon, were ok just like any evil temptation.

23. CONCERNED MUSLIM-CONCERNED WORLD CITIZEN - July 29, 2009

THIS IS WRONG…DO NOT LET YOUR DESIRES GET THE BEST OF YOU. HOMOSEXUALITY IS CLEARLY FORBIDDEN-NOT JUST IN ISLAM BUT IN ALL RELIGIONS. CAN TWO MEN HAVE CHILDREN? NO. CAN TWO WOMEN HAVE CHILDREN? NO. IT TAKES A MAN AND A WOMEN TO CONTINUE THE CIRCLE OF LIFE.

24. danish lakhani - November 29, 2012

Gay,s marraige doesn,t exist at all.


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